In response to Daryl's and Kimi's blogs
Thursday, March 17, 2005
Kimi’s blog and Daryl’s blog feature a topic which was very near and dear to our group this past summer: Can men and women be friends?
I suppose the question all depends on what stage of life you are in AND what do you define as friend. If your idea of friend is someone whose company you enjoy, you are emotionally invested in them BUT you will never get together in any sort of romantic relationship, then YES--men and women can be friends. If, however, you mean someone that you are interested in, emotionally invested in, you get a little tingly feeling when they’re around, and you hope that for now the person won’t figure out that you crave them until they’re emotionally obligated to you and so that you can both blissfully continue being “friends,” then NO--men and women cannot be friends. At that point, just be honest already! JUST SAY IT!
Girls, that really close guy friend that you have now that just showed up recently in your life and now you’re suddenly inseparable because he “understands you so well” and “is just a great friend but I wouldn’t want anything more with,” don’t be willfully ignorant! Don’t use him for his adoration! You know he’s most likely interested in you! I know you like the attention without having any committment or even acknowledgement to the guy, but be a WOMAN! Face up to your responsibility to call it like it is.
Guys, stop being so weeney and just say it! I know it’s frightening, but how much worse will it be when you FINALLY, after 2 *excruciating* years, tell the love of your life that she is the one for you only to find out that she had NO IDEA you were interested and sort of put you in the “like a gay-friend” category, never to return to “date-able” status ever? And trust me, she will probably *not* be happy if she did not sweat you and your “friendship” is basically ruined because she then recognizes many of your interactions as manipulations and deception. Or worse yet, what if she gets together with you BECAUSE SHE FEELS GUILTED INTO IT?!?
Friends, these are *not* ideal scenarios.
There are exception when men and women can be friends. There is no set condition. It just happens. Like that person that is so much like family that he seems almost asexual to you. You know, stuff like that. No formula. You just have to use common sense.
Sorry, this got a little preachy up in there…
The real topic is actually more about making opposite sex friends NOW (and by NOW i mean in your mid-twenties). I think, more than age, it depends on *your* relationship status as well as that of *your friend.* If you or they are in a committed relationship where their significant other is meant to be your best friend, then i think it is your responsibility to protect the sanctity of the relationship and not make the significant other compete with your other “best friend.” It’s simply not kind or respectful. And i assume that there are some of you out there that say, “Now wait a minute Kathy. (pause for one minute) *I* can do that--my girlfriend and I have a very open relationship. I have a best friend who is a girl who is not my significant other.” Well, congratulations. I’m sad to let you know, however, that your scenario is very rare. There is often at least *some* kind of insecurity or jealousy, no matter how trusting and wonderful your relationship is. Actually, by maintaining best opposite sex friends, you’re ASKING to give your significant other a complex.
As for single peeps who are “at that stage of development now,” I dunno...I think it’s still possible that you can make good opposite sex friends. But I see a deep investment into that to be a waste of emotional resources if i’m truly convinced that i will never get together with that guy. Either i’m going to end up marrying the guy if we get along that well OR I’m going to have to back off once I do marry someone to protect that relationship. This is kind of interesting because i do, in actuality, have a lot of guy friends. Luckily, we’re all on the same page about this. We can be really good friends and not have to talk everyday to reaffirm that. Our friendship is based on trust, confidence in each other and our friendship, emotional investment, and that “click” that you experience with kindred spirits--not on how many times i emailed today or how many intimate details I share about my life.
So now i’ve totally gone off on the subject. Phew. Maybe this should have been a Rant!
Now wait a minute Kathy…
...we’ve actually passed the border into our *late* twenties now. Haha. And some of our friends (like one out in the cornhusker state) are passing into another realm…
You’re so right about the relationship dynamic. It makes things strange to have close opposite sex friends—especially if you are married. The only way for it to happen now is if we *both* become friends with the third person. If the third person shares things, then those things ought to be shared with my wife in an open way, maybe prayed over. Keeping things in secret **even if they are good** can open up a door to strange stuff, even if no one means anything bad. Go figure. Anyhow, it helps to remember that “you” are no longer “just you” after you get married. You are now 50%, half a person, incomplete without your other half.
Haha! This comment’s anti-spam word: “together”
Posted by half of Ramone on 03/18 at 12:14 AMOkay, so I’m one of the anomalies in your group of friends Kat - I’m still in my EARLY twenties (haha! take that!!!) and yet....I’m MARRIED.
And I couldn’t agree with you more!
I wanted to stand up and cheer when you talked about girls’ “willfull ignorance.” I did that all throughout college and for the most part got away with it, but it’s not something I’m real proud of.
Now that I’m married, I’m very careful with the menfolk. Not just in the friendships I make, but just the way I talk about ANY of them to Leslie.
Since I work outside the home and Leslie’s at home all day, I definitely encounter and interact with a lot more people than he does, including men. I want to “avoid the appearance of evil” (as Ange and Merv used to say) so that there is not one chink of doubt in the armor of our marriage.
It’s not that Leslie doesn’t, or can’t, trust me. It’s that marriage is sacred and constantly under attack from the Enemy. I don’t want to introduce anything to it that can be so easily used against our bond of trust. Avoiding close friendships with other men is an easy way to do that.
There are times when I miss that “diva” like feeling from college - when I walked around campus and was known and (for the most part) really liked and sought after. My senior year was pretty heady that way.
But I’ve traded that in for someone who is committed to ALWAYS pursuing me and always deepening his friendship with me. There is no question in my mind that he will always be there, always cherish me, always be my friend (WITH PRIVILEGES! wahaha!!!!).
It’s not a loss, not in the least!
The fewer “soul ties” you have with men (if you are a woman) before you are married, the better, because for the sake of your marriage, most, if not all, of them will need to be severed.
Even my dearest and best guy friend from academy and college who now lives only an hour away from us is not my closest confidant anymore. How could he be?! And come to think of it, I don’t think anyone - regardless of their sex - should be your most trusted confidant except for your spouse!!
Hey, this is my OWN rant, too! Thanks for bringing it up, Kimi, Daryl, and Kat!
Posted by laura on 03/18 at 06:10 AMyay! I CONCUR!!!
i don’t know if we’re friends because we have the same view, or a sign that we’ve been friends so long so now we’ved molded into each other, but i totally 100% agree with kat.
actually, i think it’s the latter. i don’t think any of us believed this way before but through all our discussions we’ve come to realize that we all want our significant other relationship to be the best thing out there for us - therefore putting all relationships on a lower tier.
but wow - call it like it is! none of us should ever have to hide behind the guise of friendship to get to dating mode =) c’mon, guys, step up and be MEN and pursue me!
and everyone else… thanks for being my friend =)
Posted by kimi =) on 03/18 at 11:24 AMI think Kimi’s right. Even a year ago and almost surely two years ago, I don’t believe we would be having this conversation. I remember a few car talks with Kat about how guys and girls CAN be friends and NO he doesn’t like me and NO I’M NOT IN DENIAL!!!
Lol!
It’s really good to hear my buds talking this way. Spread the gospel!!
Posted by laura on 03/18 at 01:18 PMYou know, while in the “younger years”, though, we really have to learn this stuff. I mean there is a lot you can tell someone, but they won’t really understand until they’ve experienced it. Like Laura said, there’s the denial factor… and then the pride in being able to do anything *in theory*. Some of us would hear the limitations others spoke of and take offense at their “close-mindedness” in saying what was impossible.
So I’d just like to give a hearty “yeah!” to all our experiences (good and bad) which have taught us much more than we were ready to hear.
Posted by half of Ramone on 03/18 at 05:50 PMWhoa, I’m over the 30 mark (mentally is another question), should I even be posting? ;) Unfortunately, I’ve come to the realization that most relationships, for whatever reason, are based on some selfish reasons, whether it is for love or company. I find that “most” of us males are subconsciously drawn by the CHANCE at love. Maybe I shouldn’t say love. . . well. . . you know. . . intimacy. This is a terrible thing to say, but we men are somewhat shallow. Or immature. Heh heh heh. I guess we can all rationalize and hope for the ideal, but I find that usually the simplest explanation is the answer. Yeah. . . we’re shallow.
I think the most important thing is to be as Ramone says, approach life with an open mind and heart. Treat everyone as though they were gold, but don’t be too naive. ;) YEAH for Kenny’s Kids!!
(If this doesn’t make any sense, it’s because I’m brain dead!)
Posted by on 03/18 at 10:57 PMGotta add one thing:
You can have a friend of the oppposite sex if you both find each other physically repugnant.
Other than that, there will always be -possibilities-. From there, you just have to decide how actively you want to defend your future/current relationship.
MD
Posted by on 03/20 at 02:47 AMcute idea - “hey, this is my one and true friend. i find him repugnant!”
but really, does that ever happen? doubtful. so basically, there’s always possibilities! *sigh*
Posted by kimi =) on 03/20 at 06:36 AMTrue!
And then shoot, if you really value each other—beyond the superficial, beyond “looks”—will you not become one of those crazy people who says, “Looks aren’t what makes someone beautiful!”
Honestly, if we had a “repugnant” close friend and someone were to call them ugly, we’d be the first to punch that person in the nose for saying that.
Posted by Ramone on 03/20 at 07:20 AMHey Merv, did I just hear you call Kat ugly?
LOL.
I don’t think the first part of your argument holds water.
I think the key is very well made in your second point:
“You have to decide how actively you want to defend your future/current relationship.”
Posted by laura on 03/20 at 10:50 AMyou guys have friends in real life???? most of my friends are all on the internet now… and in my head.
Posted by Ryan Moore on 03/20 at 07:18 PMI agree with Ryan. I am not sure who this cat coo person is, but i keep coming to her blog.
Posted by on 03/22 at 09:00 AMWow, i leave you all to one simple rant and y’all go CRAZY!!
I LOVE IT! Happy to hear from you guys (YAY KENNY!) and hear your points of view. Yes, it seems we are all “growing up” or at least not hiding from ourselves these days.
It’s funny though, when i bring this up in conversation with others who have not quite reached this point, they look at me with horrified stares. “How can you be so close-minded? How can you say you’ll cut off all your friends? What a bleak world you live in!”
I guess it just comes from recognizing that there is something worth protecting (my relationship with my significant other) that makes it so that I don’t even notice that “sacrifice.”
And yes, i’m REPUGNANT in every way. Thank you Merv.
Posted by on 03/23 at 09:47 PMOy. Forgive the skepticism I’m about to unleash on this light-hearted conversation. I think we’re attracted to our friends, male and female, and we simply wouldn’t be friends with someone we found repugnant. Therefore, opposite-sex friends need some emotional distance to safeguard themselves and their significant others. So nuts and bolts: a) All people are attracted to their friends; b) men and women as adults can be friends, but not best friends; c) incidentally, choosing to have emotional distance from your previously close opposite-sex friend won’t change the fact that you know him or her really really well. Depending on the feelings of the significant other(s), you might have to leave the picture altogether.
Cheers!
Posted by on 03/28 at 11:09 AMi think that yes, you CAN make friends with the opposite sex, but it is something that is evolved. the original *purpose* of making that friend was probably driven by all or a combination of: the potential of an intimate relationship, having company in your activities, or the excitement of something that is just plain *new*.
in the process of your relationship, lines are drawn based on situation and both parties have to figure out a the path of action based on their original “purpose” which may or may not match. when the purposes match it makes progression easier. both people looking for an intimate relationship? bingo. both people looking for an activity partner? there you go.
although i’d say MOST of the time the purposes DO NOT match cause 99% of the time only one party’s purpose is the “intimate relationship” type. and that’s when you come across the whole “he/she is my best friend that i have no emotional feelings for” thing. pain is directly proportional to how DEEP the relationship is and finally there has to be resolve. resolve eventually happens, be it weeks, months or years, and either the two never talk to each other again, or they “get over it”. they can develop a true “friend” relationship cause now the original “purpose” is something that can’t be attained anymore BUT they still keep each other in each other’s lives cause they come to a realization that “having this person around is an upgrade of my life’s current specs” (sorry, HAD to make *some* type of computer-ish comment...haha).
just my 2~~~ er, i mean 10 bits.
Posted by jay on 03/28 at 11:25 AMJay wrote: they can develop a true “friend” relationship cause now the original “purpose” is something that can’t be attained anymore BUT they still keep each other in each other’s lives cause they come to a realization that “having this person around is an upgrade of my life’s current specs”
Jay, I really like that. In fact, I think I’m going to go around saying that to people I care about, “You upgrade my life. Thanks!” But yeah, it’s funny how the roles of the people in our lives change over time (and how we change to fit our friends’ situations). And when a friendship with an opposite-sex person lasts, it’s a great feeling to know that the two of you genuinely like and appreciate each other, despite the odds.
Posted by on 03/28 at 01:36 PMblah blah blah blah… why does this matter again? heh
Posted by Ryan Moore on 03/29 at 08:48 AM